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Chamber of Debate

JURY TEAM

I have been disqualified by the Jury Team for allegedly contravening the rule, viz:

"I agree not to support any policies discriminating on the basis of race, colour, gender, sexual orientation, disability or religious or other belief."

I have been tried and found guilty in the Kangaroo Court of Dillon Sharp, the Jury Team Press Officer, who has decided in his wisdom that making a bargain with the BNP is de facto proof that I support policies of discrimination prohibited by the Jury Team.

(I had said I would vote BNP if they supported me in sufficient numbers to make me the candidate with the most votes, I would say publicly that I would be voting BNP. To my delight, Bob Bailey, the BNP MEP candidate in question, acceded to my suggestion, because he liked my policies, and said he would do his best but warned me that some of his members would be "funny about doing that".)

Anyway, read the clause again like a lawyer and you will see that "other belief" arguably includes the beliefs of the BNP, the National Front, National Socialists, White Supremacists, Al-Qaeda, etc ...

I have come across BNP members who vehemently deny that they are racists.

Others are more resigned, "If supporting the BNP means people saying I am racist, then so be it."

But there are those who are not BNP who would vote BNP and would say so publicly to the media. An Asian man from Leicestershire said precisely that on the second episode of Matthew d'Ancona's BRITISHNESS on Radio 4.

Michael White of the Guardian said it would be a good thing if the BNP did well in the Euro elections.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/mar/18/electoralreform-bnp-far-right

Were this Asian man and Michael White candidates for the Jury Team, would they also have been disqualified?

By the way, I absolutely support the right of racists to vote as they please. I do not agree with them, but they are entitled to their opinion.

For more on this intriguing question, please visit


http://thevoiceofreason-ann.blogspot.com/2009/04/my-disqualification-as-jury-team-london.html
Vote: Should I, Andromeda, have made a bargain with the BNP?

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Members Comments

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1in10 5-Nov-2009 21:55
I think Andromeda was spot on to challenge the mainstream view and to suggest thinking out of the box. One can afterall support the BNP as a means of destroying the Lib-Lab-Con stranglehold. That does not necessarily mean a BNP government, but a few BNP MPs could mean people realising that they do not have to vote Lib-Lab-Con and thus open the way for a whole new spectrum of political parties and participation in politics.
jeffreymarshall 20-Jul-2009 18:25
Alan Harvey's memory plays tricks on him. What he describes as the 'neo fascist faction' that went on to form the BNP did not include Nick Griffin.

Perhaps he is thinking of the mid-1970's spat between John Kingsley Read and John Tyndall - which the Tyndallites won.

Griffin was - if anything - to begin with a protege of Martin Webster, the NF's National Activities Organiser, at least according to Webster.

Tyndall's falling out in 1980 with the homosexual Webster led him to form - or rather revive - the British National Party in 1982.

None of this mattered very much at the time anyway, since the NF had been totally sledgehammered by Thatcher's win in 1979.

Griffin arrived on the scene (having graduated from Cambridge) shortly after Tyndall and Webster's split. He proceeded to form a radical faction of the National Front that brutally dumped Webster in 1983.

Griffin did not subsequently join the BNP for another fifteen years - five years after Derek Beackon's Millwall win in 1993.

It was this victory, no doubt, that persuaded Griffin that the BNP was more viable than the then-moribund NF.

A year after joining, Griffin challenged Tyndall in an open leadership election in 1999 and won. The two men remained on bad terms until JT's death in 2005.

Alan Harvey's attempt to link Griffin with the 'neo fascist' faction that challenged John Kingsley Read in 1975 is laughable for two reasons.

Firstly because Griffin had no association with Tyndall until he joined the BNP in 1998, and this was short lived since - as I mentioned - from 1999 they were on bad terms and remained so until JT's death.

Secondly because Griffin was only 16 years old in 1975.

I would guess that probably the majority of people alive today have no memory whatsoever of the internal politics of the National Front in the 1970s.

Indeed there are many ex-NF people in public life. UKIP, for example, is stuffed with ex-NF members; the comedian Ricky Tomlinson acknowedges his former membership in his autobiography.

It would be the easiest thing in the world to ascribe former membership to 'youthful indiscretion', as these people have done.

However what is less intelligent is to lambast the current leadership of the BNP as though it had the slightest connection with a remote and forgotten power struggle among senior NF members in 1975.

Moreover, if I - like Alan Harvey - did not wish anyone to know I was former NF I think I would just keep quiet about it - instead of constantly reminding a new generation that neither knows what he is going on about, nor cares.
AlanHarvey 19-Jul-2009 11:19
My detestation of the BNP is precisely because I saw with my own eyes in 1975 the complete evil of the neo-fascist faction who were subsequently driven out of the NF and went on to found the BNP. Griffin was a member of this faction just as much as Tyndall was - indeed I seem to recall that he was regarded as Tyndall's protege at this time, though I've heard that they subsequently had a personality spat.

I will continue to try to alert people to the complete evil of the BNP hierarchy for PRECISELY the reason that I continue to suffer so much and so unjustifiably just because of a brief and naive youthful dalliance over a third of a century ago now! I don't want other sincere and genuine patriots from a new generation to suffer the same fate.
Andromeda 18-Jul-2009 8:54
It is probably best to be open about it now, Alan, since most of your enemies know about it. I sometimes wonder if people would like one MORE if one did not belong to the Lib-Lab-Con!

If more people joined the BNP, there would be a greater likelihood of its constitution being changed and becoming more democratic. They have changed a great deal over the years since John Tyndall, don't you think?

A party inevitably reflects the personality of its leader and the opinions of its members.

Even Nick Griffin has himself said that most people do not want to expel non-whites and would not pay for it.

He also knows that it would not be popular to headline BNP policies on that.

If it is still there, it is there to assuage the core supporters.

It has also been pointed out that the idea of assisted resettlement came from the Conservative Party, although this was when numbers were comparatively small.
AlanHarvey 17-Jul-2009 23:45
Thanks Andromeda - though I don't actually think that Andrew Brons being ex-NF but now an MEP for the even more extreme BNP is a very encouraging precedence!

Yes, I certain have experienced some severe problems from Wikipedia in the past, not only as a result of some trouble-maker digging up this obscure and ancient mistake of mine from the past, but also from some complete lies being posted about me thereon. Happily I can report that as a result of my complaints to Wikipedia all (or at least most) of these lies have now been removed. I would like to know who the anonymous scumbag is who evidently has such an irrational hatred of me to post such distressing and damaging smears and libels against me in this way, but I have a strong suspicion that it is someone in the BNP hierarchy who still haven't forgiven me for siding with the democratic and pro-British wing of the NF during the split in the movement 35 years ago.
Andromeda 16-Jul-2009 18:14
I am not being hostile, Alan, and I don't think it is anything to be ashamed of. After all, Andrew Brons, also ex-NF, is now MEP.

I think I read it in some old Wikipedia entry which has now been removed.

I really wouldn't worry about it.
AlanHarvey 16-Jul-2009 0:27
Can I ask you two questions Andromeda:-

1) How did you become aware of this obscure and ancient facet of my political past?

2)Why did you seek to place this most embarrassing mistake of mine some 35 years ago in the public domain, which can only do great potential harm to me both politically and business-wise?

I have met you briefly twice, both at Swinton Circle meetings, and seem to have got on very well with you on both occasions. Why therefore do you now apparently seem to have become antagonistic towards me for no apparent reason?
Andromeda 15-Jul-2009 15:55
I have no trouble in acknowledging that thuggish elements exist in the BNP as they do in all walks of life. Being a white working class movement makes this all the more likely, since only the poor are forced to live cheek by jowl with foreigners whom they resent. I have seen WEST SIDE STORY you know!

While I have no doubt that some of them bear non-whites ill-will, and beat up foreigners, I do not feel that the possibility of being sent to concentration camp is a clear and present danger.

Race riots and social unrest are what I fear, if the urban white proletariat continue to feel that their concerns are still ignored or dismissed.

Anyway, Alan, Muslims such as Ali Miraj, Kenan Malik and Baroness Warsi have publicly stated that

1) the BNP have a right to express their views

2) it would be even rational to be a BNP supporter if you are white and working class

3) they might have a point about immigration.

http://www.kenanmalik.com/essays/bergens_bnp.html

http://conservativehome.blogs.com/platform/ali_miraj/

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7020848.stm

I wish to join the growing list of non-whites who support the BNP's right to free speech and to hold their views without being smeared, ostracised and victimised.

Thank you, Alan, for voting for me because you liked my policies. I do not hold your membership of the NF against you at all, merely your attempt to pretend that extermination camps are being built by the BNP even as we speak and that they advocate the extermination of all Jewry.

Anti-Semitism is, as we know, not only present in the BNP, but in all walks of British life. Not only that, it is a Christian and European tradition to be anti-Semitic.

I will mention another film - FIDDLER ON THE ROOF - to show that I am aware of pogroms, and a play - THE MERCHANT OF VENICE - to prove that anti-Semitism has existed in European civilisation for many centuries, and is not confined to the BNP alone.
AlanHarvey 15-Jul-2009 12:3
Could you please tell me why a naive youthful mistake which I made over 35 years ago now (and which only lasted for 15 months!) CONTINUALLY has to be dragged up! The likes of Dennis Healey, John Reid and Jack Straw can have youthful dalliances with the Communist Party, and all is forgiven - but when one makes a similar mistake at the other end of the political spectrum then you are NEVER allowed to forget it. It is simply pathetic!

You ask what I stand for. I stand for freedom, democracy and decency. Free speech is an ideal, but it can never be absolute because it often conflicts with the freedom of others - for example the BNP's advocation of the extermination of the Jewish people.

Although I was only in the NF briefly, I was there for long enough to realise that there was a certain clique who were totally EVIL. This clique are now in charge of the BNP. You do yourself no favours whatsoever by associating with such evil Andromeda, as you you have found to your peril by the Jury Team's de-selection of your candidature (and incidentally I voted for you via text a few months ago!).
Andromeda 15-Jul-2009 9:2
Alan Harvey's alarmism and exaggerated fears about the BNP wishing to exterminate other races is laughable.

Since he used to be member of the NF, it is probably the case that he now wishes to appear, er, whiter than white, but there is really no need to so comprehensively traduce his former comrades to gain favour with UKIP or the Tories, in my opinion, because these people are just not worth it.

While I know there are those who would wish to expel all non-whites, the more sensible nationalists know that this not politically feasible.

My country of origin is one in which it is possible to complain about immigration and foreigners without being accused of being an exterminating Nazi.

The white urban proletariat of Britain deserves no less.

Those who are disadvantageously affected by largescale immigration have a right to complain, without being smeared by accusations of Nazism.

I defend the right of the BNP to complain about foreigners and suggest ways of dealing with them, because I too reserve my right to complain about any new arrivals whose presence I may myself resent. I see nothing wrong, for example, in conveying a message that Sub-Saharan Africans should save themselves a long and dangerous journey by not giving the people traffickers their fare to a land which does not welcome them and is no longer the land of milk and honey.

I am frankly astounded at the bovine tolerance of the majority of the British, who have suffered so long this conspiracy of smears and intimidation perpetrated by the media and the political establishment. It is totalitarian, nasty and completely insane.

I stand for free speech even as I wonder what it is that Alan Harvey thinks he stands for.

Perhaps those in the BNP will take note that their worst enemies are not the foreigners who come but those who are the same race as they who

a) let them in in the first place

b) conspire to smear them for daring to complain


Here is the transcript of Nick Griffin's interview on the Andrew Marr Show on 12 July 2009.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/andrew_marr_show/8146456.stm

ANDREW MARR:

Do you any longer want to see an all-white Britain?

NICK GRIFFIN:

No, it's simply not … it's simply not doable. Nobody out there wants it or will pay for it. We do believe the Britain we had up until 1948 when the liberal elite decided to change it into something totally different without a vote, without anything being asked of the British people - we think that was wrong, it was undemocratic, but what is done is done. We now … What we need to do now is ….

ANDREW MARR:

(over) So no repatriation programme?

NICK GRIFFIN:

No repatriation … The same resettlement programme which exists at present, whereby the government makes money available to members of ethnic minorities who want - that's the important word, the crucial word - who want to go back to their lands of ethnic origin, they can get help to do so. And we will put more money into that because Britain is full, overcrowded, and clearly terribly, terribly unstable as a result of this multicultural experiment.

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